Transcript
Welcome to Money Isn’t Everything. I’m Mary Wisniewski, Cornerstone Advisors editor-at-large and host of the show that explores early-stage ideas that could, if not already, shake up financial services.
And we have a mashup today. Something new on something old.
Yes, we’re talking about checking account innovation.
My guest is Christian Widhalm, the CEO of Bloom Credit.
You may have already seen him on Cornerstone Advisors’ Fintech Hustle. I’ll drop a link to the show notes just in case you haven’t.
But today on Money Isn’t Everything, we’re talking about checking accounts that build your credit and why it helps financial institutions woo the younger generations.
Here’s our conversation.
Christian, welcome to Money Isn’t Everything.
It’s wonderful to have you on the show today.
Thank you for coming.
Thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate it.
Happy to be here.
Well, I’m happy that you’re here too because you are challenging an older business model and the way that someone can help build credit without necessarily taking on credit.
I wondered what drew you to working on that problem.
Well, it’s interesting.
So Bloom Credit, we’re a B2B credit data infrastructure platform with a suite of APIs.
What we started out doing was we wanted to actually improve the bidirectional connectivity between our clients and the major credit bureaus, TransUnion, Equifax, Experian.
When we started, our clients, as any fintech infrastructure platform, typically when you start, your first clients are fintechs.
So we were trying to enable that bidirectional connectivity to be easier.
What I mean by bidirectional connectivity is that we wanted our clients to be able to access credit data.
So they could pull credit data for the purposes of the extension of credit underwriting very easily through one API that could actually get access to all three credit bureaus in a normalized fashion.
Then also, we wanted to make sure that they could easily report credit data.
So the other direction going back, which is obviously why the credit bureaus have all the data that they do.
What we found was that not a lot of innovation had happened in credit reporting.
Metro 2, which is the standard that institutions use to report credit data, it’s a format really, is 25, 26 years old.
It was really designed for traditional types of credit products, credit cards, personal loans, mortgages, whatever.
It wasn’t designed to handle the new types of products that were actually available today from a credit perspective to consumers, or the shift of consumer preference within the market for credit products, as well as the influx of new types of data that ultimately could be reported and used within the credit report.
So we set out to make something that was going to be agnostic from a data perspective, highly accurate, because there’s some absurd number like 34% of consumers in the United States have an error on their credit report.
We wanted to make that go away.
We also wanted to figure out how to do it in as near real time as possible because the traditional products basically are on 30-day statement cycles.
So by the time it’s actually reported, it’s usually 45 days stale, and stuff just isn’t necessarily the most fresh.
By doing this, we spent a lot of time with the bureaus, and we spent a lot of time with clients, and we spent a lot of time reporting and earning what I think is a very good reputation with the major credit bureaus about what we do and also how we’re there to help not only the bureaus, but the consumers as well as the lenders that are in the ecosystem.
So the whole ecosystem together.
As part of that, the bureaus started to come to us with their own problems or their own challenges that they needed to solve.
One of them in particular approached us about 18 months ago or so and said, “Hey, you guys are the best that we know at what you do. Do you think that you can do this for checking account data, to report payments out of checking accounts to be reported as tradelines and show up for the purposes of helping build credit?”
We’re like, absolutely.
And not only that, we think that’s a terrific idea to be able to actually go and take to FIs so that FIs can actually use this as an engagement tool for deposits, for lending, for just engagement overall with their customer base so that they can then go and become more relevant to these younger generations.
So we created this product called Bloom+.
We came out of beta, I think, almost a year ago today.
So it’s been a fascinating last 18 to 24 months, whatever it’s been, in this space and really kind of focused on it.
We’ve been really excited about it, especially how differentiated this product is for FIs and consumers.
Well, let’s talk about this because from my understanding, you can report up to five bills, right?
Five is the magic.
Okay.
Tell me about why that number.
I don’t know why, but that’s where my curiosity first went.
Yeah.
So the five is dictated by the credit bureaus.
I think the credit bureaus are looking at potentially adding other types of payments that can be eligible, but we’re starting with five.
The five that we have are rent, telco, like your cell phone bill type thing, and then up to three utilities.
The three utilities specifically are water, gas and electric.
The thing is, there is a spot on the credit report for these types of transactions, these types of bills.
The problem has been that the vast, vast, vast majority of this data is only reported to the credit bureau if the consumer becomes severely delinquent and goes into collections.
So they’re using it, it’s all stick, no carrot.
They’re using it for recovery, but not for actually giving credit to the consumer for bills that they’re actually paying.
The total number of bills that are eligible is dictated by the credit bureaus.
But the beauty of it is that it allows the consumer and empowers the consumer, through this consumer-permissioned data, to report this stuff and actually have it go and have a meaningful impact to their credit report.
Okay.
That’s really interesting.
I didn’t know it was dictated by them.
So that makes a lot of sense why there is that number.
I wanted to unpack, I know separately of me, but Cornerstone worked with your firm on a report, and one of the findings was how millennials and Gen Z would especially want to use a product, a checking account that helped them build their credit.
I took a note.
It was a sample size from Americans with a subprime score of 580 to 619 or near-prime 620 to 670.
I guess the broader question I have for you is, what’s the opportunity in adding credit-building tools into a checking account?
We sort of danced into it, but let’s dance a little bit more into it.
Yeah, of course.
Look, there are various things.
I think that, even just to start, I’ll probably quote what Navy Federal Credit Union, who’s one of our clients and is live with the product, put out in a press release, which was “Navy Federal reimagines checking.”
I’ve had so many conversations with executives at credit unions and banks who all say the same thing.
The checking account hasn’t had meaningful innovation in a decade.
Everyone’s trying to figure out, how do you actually make checking different?
This product actually does it because it gives the consumer the ability to demonstrate creditworthiness without going into debt.
The issue with credit overall for a lot of people is that it’s the chicken or the egg.
If you don’t have credit, it’s hard to get credit.
Mhm.
It’s just been this cycle that everyone has been stuck in.
So the ability for an FI to empower and enable their consumer depositors to go and build credit history through the relationship with the checking account that they have with the FI is incredibly powerful.
I look at it in a couple ways.
One is relevance.
I think that you’ve got so many more fintechs and neobanks.
You also have payment companies like Cash App and Venmo.
If you ask a Gen Z person who their primary FI is, there’s some number, don’t quote me on it, but it’s like 60% of them will say Cash App or Venmo.
So as you’re an FI looking at trying to engage and be relevant to the next generation of customers, it’s not about the marketing message per se that you need to put out there that’s going to make you hip and relevant.
It’s going to be the products that you actually provide them that solve their problems that ultimately make you relevant.
The average age of a credit union member or community bank customer is like 53 or 54 years old.
The median age of the U.S. demographic is like 39.
The peak age for most banks and credit union customers is 46.
So by the time they hit 46, it starts to go down more of a downslope from a value perspective.
There are seven or eight years down that downslope.
There are other products and services they can probably engage them on, but they usually don’t have them.
So this is an opportunity to actually look at Gen Z, look at millennials, and even Gen Xers that we see in the report that was done by Cornerstone, to really go and engage them here.
I think it’s something around 70%.
It’s in the report.
I encourage everyone to download it and look at it.
But 70% of the 2,000 people surveyed put credit building out of their checking account as the number one benefit that they wanted to see.
That was over other things like bundled subscriptions and other things like that.
So it is a real problem.
One of the reasons it’s a problem is because you’ve got 100 million people in the U.S. that don’t have access to mainstream credit rates or products.
A lot of those are younger people that are just entering their early years.
You also have like 40 million immigrants that are in the country that have limited credit history.
Overall, there are like 64 or 65 million people that are considered thin file, meaning there’s limited information on them.
So if you look at it, it’s a giant number.
It’s like 40% of the 18-plus credit-eligible population in the United States doesn’t have access to mainstream credit rates or products.
A lot of it is just because there’s not a lot of information on them.
This is a way to be relevant, to drive that ability for them to build credit history, and then ultimately get more products, more services, more lending opportunities with that FI and establish a long-term relationship with them.
Yeah.
Christian, I definitely see the era with checking accounts all resembling themselves.
It’s very hard to stand out.
I’ve heard of things off and on over the years, just cash flow underwriting ideas this way or that.
It feels like we’re more at a moment for, I know Nova Credit partnering with Chase and PayPal, Experian Boost.
These are examples of making this more of a mainstream thing.
I have to think this is still, for anyone that partnered with you, it would still be like, oh, this is a newer thing that maybe not all consumers are familiar with.
Any advice in the marketing of such a thing?
Or is it obvious to people interacting?
Any feedback that you’ve gotten from your work with the credit union of things they’re hearing from people?
No.
You know, I think that Experian Boost, similar product in terms of, but it’s a direct-consumer product.
Ours is B2B2C.
So we’re doing it on behalf of, and it’s white-labeled for, our clients so they can offer it within their experience to their members and customers.
I think Experian Boost did a really good job with all the commercials and everything else that they put out to let people know that this is something that you can do.
So I do think that there’s more awareness of it.
I also think that a lot of it is going to be making it very clear to your customer base that you are offering this product and what the benefits are.
This is easy for me to say, and I say this all the time, but I truly think that in the next five years this is going to be something that all banks and credit unions just do because it becomes what’s right for the customer and it becomes market.
Yeah.
But more awareness.
I think you’re right.
It needs to keep developing awareness.
I’m trying to hide from the sun.
If you’re just listening and not watching, I have the sun all over my face.
But I’m just going to roll with it.
Christian, I have one segment on the show called “That’s What You Said,” and you said this earlier.
It was, “The bureaus have done a great job of getting consumers to care about their credit scores.”
I wanted to unpack that a little bit because, yes, this was one of those things that’s been, I would say, mysterious to a lot of people.
From my perspective, Credit Karma really helped make people wonder about their credit scores.
But tell me more about this.
How did it...
Yeah.
So I think that Credit Karma was the real catalyst.
But what happened was, under FCRA, I think consumers had the ability to get their credit report and understand what’s going on from a credit perspective on an annual basis or something for free.
I can’t remember what the frequency is.
It was part of it.
Then the credit bureaus started having the ability to have a free credit report and come there and we’ll show you what your credit is.
Credit Karma took it to absolutely the next level.
Credit Karma, I think, boasts like 100 million total users.
I don’t know how many of them are active users necessarily, but 100 million users.
I think like 50% or 60% of all millennials are on Credit Karma.
Credit Karma has done a terrific job of being able to educate and inform consumers on what their credit score is.
Now, the thing that we think is the next step, and we applaud them for that.
They’ve done a fantastic job.
I think there’s way more awareness for people to understand that they need a credit score, what it’s good for.
But the obvious next step is, how do you actually give them a method to actually go and help establish credit without going into credit, and actually take a next step of improving their credit history and improving their credit score?
That’s usually where there’s been a big chasm.
Here’s what your credit score is.
You’re doing great.
You’re not doing great.
It might give you some tips.
Hey, try to pay down this credit card.
Try to do this.
But there’s no real actionable way for them, the consumers, to really make that next step or that next change.
I think this product is very much designed to do that.
What happens in the cases where someone misses a bill payment or something?
So it’s maybe a negative.
What happens then?
Well, the way that it works is because we’re looking at the information that’s coming out of the checking account.
So we can see when these are actually being made and whatnot.
If a consumer misses a payment, there’s a period of time that is given to them, a window where, if there are no payments made over like a three-month period, ultimately the account just gets closed.
There’s no more reporting of that bill because there are certain times that you might end up having a bill being skipped.
So it’s not necessarily reported as negative.
It’s reported as it wasn’t made, which is a big difference.
It’s not being reported as delinquent.
It’s just not showing payment was made.
Ultimately, if a consumer doesn’t report for, like I said, three months, that tradeline will ultimately get closed.
Okay.
How many bills are people typically selecting?
Like, hey, I want this all reported.
Great question.
So what we see so far is on average 2.2 bills are paid.
We see within a 24-hour period about a 25-point increase on average of the consumers, and also of them going from thin file to thicker file or unscorable to scorable, which is also a big deal.
The thing that’s really powerful about this is that we look in arrears at 24 months of payments made out of the checking account.
So if the consumer has been making their cell phone payment and their utility payment out of that checking account for eight months, when we report the next day, we report every day.
So someone enrolls that night, it’s getting sent to the bureaus.
Then by the next day, typically it’s usually within 24 hours, it’ll show up.
But we will make the open date of that tradeline be the very first date, up to 24 months, that the consumer made their payment.
So the consumer can actually wake up in the morning and potentially have five tradelines with 24 months of history.
But on average, we see about 2.2 payments made per consumer.
About a 25-point increase on average.
About 75% of the enrolled users are Gen Z or millennial, and 75% are in the near-prime kind of category.
Yeah.
Wow.
That goes out to all you bankers and credit unions out there.
I know that is elusive.
I want to go back.
The industry, it’s true, you already brought this up, the average age at a credit union, did you say 55?
53, 54, something like that.
53, 54.
Yeah.
I mean, that’s wild.
So here’s one idea.
Are you seeing any other features or language that you find, oh, this is where this is resonating with this younger audience?
Features that are out there within our product or just in general?
General.
Yeah.
Look, I think obviously the payment apps is what a lot of people have been focused on, or a lot of people use.
I think banks and credit unions have kind of responded with Zelle and other things to try to remain relevant there.
But the big thing is you’ve got all these fintechs and neobanks that are out there who we partner with as well.
This isn’t against them.
But I’m looking at what the problem is for the banks and credit unions.
How do you remain relevant to that demographic?
What we’ve found is that this product absolutely helps with that.
Even the unsolicited feedback that we get from users telling us, “This is the greatest thing. I can’t believe this is being offered. I’m so happy that my FI is offering this. I’m trying to become a first-time homebuyer. I’m trying to do this. I’m so excited for this product.”
All that stuff actually comes back to us.
I’ll tell you, there are not that many products you have the ability to offer where you can do good and also do well as an FI.
You benefit from it.
If you think about it, these financial institutions can actually now market that their checking accounts have the ability natively, inherently, to have credit building associated with those checking accounts directly through the FI.
People have not been able to actually claim that before.
People haven’t been able to do that before.
Most credit builder stuff was related to a secured card that you were asking the consumer to put in $250 to $1,000 that they didn’t have, to put into this and then hope that their credit score was going to go up with usage over the next two years.
This is something that ultimately can happen within 24 hours and actually give the consumer the credit for all of the behavior they’re already doing.
You’re not asking them to change their behavior.
You’re not asking them to take out a new product.
All you’re doing is connecting and looking at their payments in order to go report it.
Ultimately, that leads to the ability to have deposit acquisition, deposit retention and stickiness.
We’ve actually already seen it.
I don’t have any data to share with you right now.
We’ve been running a lot of analysis on it.
But an increase in the number of payments made per customer, increase in deposits, increase in things where this engagement from the consumer that’s actually enrolled is actually going up for the bank and the credit union.
Then the ability to actually say yes to more loans.
Get people into entry-level card products or loans that otherwise you might not have been able to say yes to, and establish that as a lifelong relationship with the customer.
I think one of the interesting things that came out of the Cornerstone report was that for each new deposit customer that you get, this Gen Z, millennial, if you split them up and you look on average, it’s about $300 or more, $333 or something, in terms of annual debit interchange that you can get from this product being offered on a per-customer basis.
That’s a huge number.
I think as FIs continue to look for opportunities for more ways of non-interest income and looking at things, this is a way where they can really engage the customer with something that they need and obviously want, but also benefits both the longevity of the institution, the relevance of the institution and the bottom line of the institution.
I’m curious about your take here.
I know from some research I’ve done on my own, but also from the stories of younger consumers, they’re known for being more willing to share their data, but also share just things in general.
I find it refreshing.
There’s this TikTok trend where people are being very transparent about their salary to help someone else who might be applying for a similar job or something like that.
So it does seem like there’s this appetite, especially by Gen Z, to just be more willing to share what historically might be considered private.
Is that something that you’re feeling as well?
Yes.
I think that I talked about Credit Karma laying the foundation for people really understanding and knowing their credit score and being more informed.
I also think that Plaid has done a terrific job, with all the fintechs and all the offerings and everything else.
I think most people have gone through some sort of a Plaid account connection at this point.
In the beginning, in 2015 or 2016, people were like, “I’m not putting my credentials in there. Are you kidding me? What are you talking about? No.”
But ultimately, I think that more and more people understand that products and services that can benefit them can actually be delivered to them by providing insights or access to their checking account data in order to administer the product.
I think that’s also a big step.
So it’s not even just TikTok generation or Gen Z or whatnot.
I think it’s just more consumers are becoming more comfortable with this type of stuff as well.
Christian, you mentioned Plaid.
One of the biggest stories, if not the biggest story of the year, has been the data access, who pays what, when, how, why.
So Plaid is paying Chase, and I wondered, do you have a viewpoint on the business model of accessing data from the bank?
I know your model is different.
Yeah, our model’s different.
I’ll get into why it’s different in a second.
My thoughts on this are that, and everyone’s been talking about this for a long time, who owns the data?
Even Chase is saying, “No, the consumer owns the data. We just own the rails that you’re going to access that data from.”
I think we all knew that Plaid was going to come to some agreement with Chase, and they were the first to the table.
I don’t know what the terms of their deal were, but my guess is they probably got a pretty good deal.
My big take on it, and maybe not a take but more of a little bit of a fear, is that with 1033 kind of being sidelined and the CFPB kind of being neutered by the current administration, I just feel that it’s going to start opening up a lot of states that like to be, we’ll call it, regulatory happy, with introducing new things to start introducing new regulations on this.
Love them or hate them, with the CFPB, you at least have one sort of person that you’re facing off against on the federal level.
You understand what they want, what the agenda is and everything else.
When they get kind of silenced and then you get consumer groups or state regulators that start to come in and say, “Hey, you know what? Our state needs to pick up the slack here.”
Typically you’ll see California, Illinois, Massachusetts, New York.
That’s where I think that you have a little bit of fear, having death by a thousand cuts.
Opening up a lot of state regulation is never going to be a fun sort of experience for anybody.
So I do think that.
I don’t think that Chase is out of their mind or their right to do what they’re doing.
I think there’s going to be some interesting stuff as we kind of see what transpires ahead.
But my kind of more near-term thing comes to, one, the costs will go up for fintechs and consumers, or fintechs have to eat them or consumers will have to pay more.
It probably is going to be good for banks.
So Chase probably did every bank and credit union a favor by actually taking the stance to start because there’ll probably be a little less competition for them.
But I just think that time will tell.
We’ll see where everything shakes out.
Prices will probably either go up or models will have to change for certain types of products and services that fintechs are offering.
I think you’re probably going to see more state regulation.
Yeah.
Time will tell.
You had mentioned how your model is different, or I mentioned it too.
But yeah, let’s talk about how.
Yeah.
I think one of the things is that, look, with Plaid, with aggregators, typically one of the reasons that FIs don’t want them accessing the data is because they’re offering other products and services that are outside the realm of the FI gated walls.
The gated walls.
You’re taking my customer and you’re doing things with them.
With us, we’re not doing that.
We’re taking your data as the FI, and then we’re using it with your customers, prospective customers, in order to deliver a service that makes you more relevant, makes you attract more deposits, more sticky, more everything.
So the output of what we’re doing is for the FI.
It’s not for data going out to then go and enable another outside relationship or connection that consumer might ultimately have been doing with an aggregator.
Christian, since we just went over one of the hot topics, here’s another one.
Buy now, pay later and whether it should be included in credit scoring and so on.
If you’re listening and not watching, he did a little face.
But I’m curious.
What’s your stance here on whether it should be included or not?
Or maybe it’s somewhere in the middle.
Oh man.
This could be an entire show.
Just because we’ve been talking between the bureaus and buy now, pay laters about the reporting of credit data for like five years now.
Look, do I think it should be reported?
Yeah, I do, because BNPL usage has grown considerably in the United States.
That’s a lot of black-box stuff that even some economists don’t fully know, when they’re looking at everything, as well as just kind of what’s out there, what obligations people have.
So do I think it should be reported?
I do think it should be reported.
I think part of the reason it hasn’t been reported is there are various reasons.
One, I don’t think that the bureaus were necessarily ready in the beginning for intramonth payments.
The pay-in-four, pay-in-six is incredibly short duration.
Those payments happen over a very quick time.
Like I said earlier, a lot of the stuff, the way that the bureaus are set up, was for monthly statement cycles with things happening on a monthly basis.
There is that.
The other was that there were a lot of fears a while ago for the score impact because traditional scores look at things like average number of inquiries, number of accounts opened, and average length of an account being open.
So if people were opening up an account to get a BNPL and then ultimately paying it off in six weeks or eight weeks or whatever it is, the account gets closed.
Now you do that seven times as a consumer over a quarter or over six months or whatever.
Now you’ve got these inquiries.
You’ve got your average length or duration of your accounts that are open, your tradelines, actually going down, and it could potentially hurt your score.
Well, FICO and I think Vantage have been collaborating with the BNPLs to figure out how to get around this.
So the scores aren’t really going to be to the same level, and in some cases not even including them in score calculations, but still showing the BNPL on the credit report as a tradeline but excluded from scoring.
So there’s been a lot of stuff about what are we doing with that.
It’s ranged.
Then also I think now the BNPLs are like, do we want to give this away?
This is kind of some secret sauce.
We have a lot of good data.
We don’t want people poaching it by getting access to it and saying, “Oh, Mary is a great BNPL consumer, customer. We should send her a bunch of targeted messaging or direct mail or whatever it is.”
So I think that there’s a hesitancy around, our data is pretty valuable.
We should probably put a moat around it.
But all of these things have ultimately been part of the narrative in terms of why they haven’t been reported.
I think we’re getting closer to it being reported.
I do think that it’s better for everybody, even in the long term, the buy now, pay laters, if the data is actually reported and sent to the bureaus.
Well, it’s definitely a fascinating story that keeps going, as you alluded to.
I really appreciate your candor there.
I only have one question left for you.
But before I do that, if someone wants to reach out to you, what’s the best way?
Any last thoughts on, oh, this is really interesting in fintech right now, or what you’re looking at as the year comes to a close?
Yeah.
So if you want to contact me, you can reach me at Christian@bloomcredit.io, or you can find me on LinkedIn.
I respond to my LinkedIn messages.
I think that right now the thing that, from a trend perspective, and it’s going to be interesting to see what happens.
You talk about tariffs.
You talk about China.
You talk about some of the conflicts that are going on abroad and some of them that just kind of ended, or at least ended for the time being.
The economy, there have been so many more deals and activity and people willing to do partnerships, people willing to lean in on deal activity and just business partnerships in general.
It’s been a really interesting last, I’d say at least so far this year, 2025, even with all the noise, with all the other things going on at the macro level.
It’s been exciting.
You’ve seen different fintechs and different folks start to IPO.
You’ve seen different deals happen.
You’ve seen announcements made.
You see Chase and Nova make their announcement.
You see the other things going on.
You’ve got the stuff with Plaid and Chase and everything else.
I think it’s just, we were in a little bit of a winter for a while, fall 2021.
I think a lot of folks are starting to emerge from that with a lot more things that are good for the business perspective, but also good really for the consumers, with a lot of the stuff that’s starting to percolate.
Like I said, the Plaid-Chase thing will be TBD.
We’ll see how that impacts consumers.
But overall, I think it’s been a really interesting year.
It’s definitely, I would call it, very dramatic.
This has been a very dramatic fintech year.
Well, Christian, thanks so much.
My last question for you is, what’s the image on your phone’s lock screen?
Oh man.
I love sharing this.
I didn’t know I was going to be able to see it.
So I have a, he’s now five and a half, but since he was two, my middle child, his name’s Jimmy.
He falls asleep on the couch, and he falls asleep on the couch like, if anyone’s seen the show Married... with Children from back in the ’80s, ’90s with Al Bundy, it’s this little two-and-a-half-year-old who puts one hand behind his head and the other hand he always has in his pants.
So this is the picture of my kid.
I can’t really, oh, how do I just bring up the picture by itself?
You can’t really maybe see it, but do you see that?
Yeah.
Passed out on the couch with his hand down his pants.
The proverbial couch potato middle-aged man as a two-and-a-half-year-old.
I’ve had that on my background for like three years because it just makes me laugh.
Christian, we described the year in fintech as flavorful.
I think that caps us off well with a flavorful last image.
So thank you so much for being on the show, Money Isn’t Everything.
It’s been a delight to speak with you today.
Mary, thank you so much for having me.
It was a joy.
Okay.
So one thing that really popped for me is his flavorful quote, which was, “The checking account hasn’t had meaningful innovation in a decade.”
That’s bold, and also I think it’s fair to say that it’s true.
Make sure, if you haven’t already, to hit that follow button on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you’re listening to catch the next Money Isn’t Everything.
I’ve got more great conversations coming your way, including the next one, which is a really flavorful and smart conversation about designing fairness into your fintech app or your bank app, and it’s with Consumer Reports.
Catch you then.
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